Watched the YouTube video, loved the discussion. Interesting thoughts on the protestors, easy to paint them with a broad brush especially as a youth going to general conference and having a bunch of people yelling at you. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
I think part of me wanted them all to be the same, but, as an evangelical, it was very easy for me to see the taxonomy. I think there are some sincere folks there, and would love for Latter-day Saints to have a conversation with them as to why they’re present, e.g., Bradley Campbell (God Loves Mormons). But so many of them are cosplaying John the Baptist in the worst way, with AI-generated slop signs depicting people in hell. One guy shouted at children their parents were going to burn in hell. I’m just not see the Lord Jesus model that whatsoever. I think that sort of behavior grieves the Holy Spirit.
Your observation of the inoffensive emphasis on salvation as destination over necessity because of sin matches my years of experience in the LDS Church. That with a narrowed ‘benign’ emphasis on God’s desire for our ‘happiness’ and success, without the devotional weight of divine justice, the way of the Cross, and utter detachment from worldly goods (including those deemed essential or most noble), was not an insignificant factor in my conversion out.
This is interesting, Jared. I joined the Church at 16, and the emphasis on repentance has been continual in the many years I've been a member. I'm sure harrowing up people in acknowledgment of their sins was much more common in the early church, as it was at the center of Protestantism at the time. I'm sure the many Saints who left the Church because of Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants did so because it drew focus away from the condemnation of most people and made it seem like most would go to heaven. As for detachment from worldly goods, we as a family have completely detached several times in order to follow promptings from the Spirit. These were Abrahamic tests, something all Saints are supposed to be willing to undertake.
Yes, I agree that emphasizing sin was much more prevent among the early church, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon, early revelations in Doctrine & Covenants, and notes/transcripts of early LDS sermons. I don’t understand, though, why it’s waned (as as the charisma of the Kirtland era).
I often feel like the reason is just cultural. Hellfire and brimstone preaching was comfortable for Brigham Young, but then it faded. But hasn't it faded, at least in America, in most Christian faiths? Yes, the Book of Mormon is absolutely more expressive on evading God's wrath than is modern LDS preaching. The first chapter of the Doctrine and Covenants was dictated by Christ, and it is also more so than modern preaching. As far as charismatic events are concerned, maybe you heard the statement from Dallas Jenkins that Latter-day Saints need to be more enthusiastic in the joy of their worship. In some of our temple dedications, we do the Hosanna Shout, and it's wimpy (embarrassingly so). I hope the brethren encourage the Saints to really go for it as the rededication of the Salt Lake Temple. Let's wake up some angels and get a pentecostal experience.
I resonate with several of those biographical notes and personal sentiments, though I am marking a generalized institutional trend. The beginning of my higher education was at BYU-I Online, using some of their pathway programs and religion courses, alongside the study and personal practices of my active family. I'm not exactly talking about "hellfire preaching", although that represents a regularly necessary, practical expression of acknowledging the gravity of divine justice, which the Bible, the Church Fathers, and many later theologians (both Catholic and Protestant) expressed in a variety of ways. I'm not talking about the scandal of Mormonism's quasi-universalism, either, although it contributes to this issue.
What I'm referring to is a devotional orientation towards loving to please and desire God (and to fear displeasing Him) for His own sake as Goodness. "God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." (Ps. 73:26) The demands of His justice and the response of true religion correspond to the dignity of His Nature. Only God is good, Our Lord says. Like the lover weds her Beloved and forsakes all other goods, so does the disciple. This involves, in the New Testament, a complete detachment even from goods Mormonism esteems as essential, such as family, and a willingness to undergo profound suffering for the glory of God, rather than to desire the pleasures of immanent experience. It is a daily death, which does not spare even the most precious or basic things according to temporal judgment. Historically, in the apostolic churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.), this has manifested as tiers of ascetic practices, such as consecrated celibacy (which St. John Chrysostom ties to the glory of the sun in 1 Cor. 15:40-42, and which St. Paul upheld as superior to marriage 1 Cor. 7), rigorous fasting, imitation and devotion to the martyrs (who follow Christ's example), and other things. Historically and into the present, these communions sustain these in discipline and teaching, even if certain members, by accident, do not share the mind and devotion of the Church. Not all are called to be monks, but all Christians ought to be committed, by ascending degrees, to voluntarily carrying the Cross.
As a thought experiment, which C.S. Lewis entertained in his writing, The Great Divorce, is one truly detached if they are unwilling to enjoy heaven when they are not assured that their immediate family has not been cast into outer darkness? The Christian desires not good things, but the Good per se. This is not formalized in any shape I have observed in Mormonism. To the contrary, I've observed in theological writing, devotional literature, and educational materials, an emphasis on material success, eternal union with family, community, dominions in the afterlife, and other things that apostolic Christians consider lower, analogous, and instrumental goods that must participate in complete subjection to the divine life of the Trinity to be preserved.
I understand your family made sacrifices. I grew up in a faithful family that was often misunderstood by LDS neighbors and hierarchs for the choices we made in pursuit of what we felt God called us to do. These were more than "Abrahamic tests", for the cost materialized in many different ways.
My observation, both in the practical culture and in the official literature, is that the kind of sacrifices you mention are not common or prioritized. There has been a presumption of happiness, material victories, and of this life and the next unfolding in a highly predictable way if one obeys the teachings of the LDS prophets, with preoccupations with family, wealth, and subjective experience of joy. I'm not saying this is completely unfounded. Deuteronomy presupposes a certain moral order and just reward in the cosmos, but the life of Job challenges this severely. The saints of my tradition do not seek God because they are promised these things, but because they love Him. If we and our desires are worth anything, it is in Him, the Foundation of our being (Acts 17:28). Yet, while there is no salvation outside the Mystical Body of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, the Bond of Christian charity in mind and heart, I think that Mormons have space to incorporate the spirit of ascetism and radical self-denial into their doctrines of natural virtue. There are better moments in its history reflecting this.
I can't speak very well to repentance culture in Mormonism since I left in 2022, though I've witnessed the disciplinary process (which, according to several anecdotes, had varying degrees of pastoral success). I don't doubt the presence of an ongoing invitation to moral reform.
This is fascinating. I've never considered asceticism in an LDS context, probably for the reasons you have explained here. Our family has faced a lot of financial trials, and we have lived abroad for years in cultures with both prosperity and abject poverty. Given that we've divested several times of everything we owned, we're not very materialistic. I sometimes see examples of the prosperity gospel, and it has a bitter taste. I don't know if you've gone to see the temple in the hills above Draper in the Salt Lake Valley. It's surrounded by megamansions, or rather, McMansions, and it's appalling to me, and ironic for the reasons you've presented. But one thing...how does one serve his neighbor if one is ascetic? For us, serving God and neighbor are imperative.
I grew up along the Wasatch Front, close to Alpine. I've also travelled far. I know the type, and affluence and comfort are not wrong per se, just spiritually perilous.
As I said, ascetic practice has tiers. Not everyone is called to asceticism or charity in the same way. The rich have obligations to support the poor. More perfect ascetics dedicate themselves to fasting and prayer (which are expressions of love for God and men). The Catholic Church, drawing from the New Testament, details a list of corporeal and spiritual 'works of mercy' that most Christians, regardless of their state in life, can follow. You will find a great diversity of groups among Catholics that dedicate themselves to different things. Laypeople engage in more moderate ascetic practices of fasting, self-denial, and prayer than religious or monastics. Some religious orders are more dedicated to corporeal works of mercy, while others are dedicated to spiritual works of mercy or to a disciplined rule of attention, contemplation, or study (which are all supposed to be spiritual and prayerful). Like St. Paul said, not all have the same gifts of the Spirit.
I can see the difference in one's personal journey toward real spirituality focused on God. Temple worship provides the most definable structure in the Church, but Catholicism has more defined pathways and performances. I have a dear friend whose practice is very close to being an actual nun, even though she never took that path. There are formal ways for her to do this, and it's extremely fulfilling for her. Here, we might want to remember that Catholicism has had a lot of time to put these pathways to asceticism into place. I don't see structures in our church that can lead in that direction, except those that might evolve within temple worship. Rather, this has to happen in one's heart and personal choices. I did leave family behind to join the Church. I've had a lot of years to evolve my faith, but that has been an entirely personal journey, and it looks very different from many other members' but very similar to the journeys of my closest friends, who disavow materialism, understand that any sacrifice is worth drawing closer to God, and show Christlike love in their everyday lives.
Watched the YouTube video, loved the discussion. Interesting thoughts on the protestors, easy to paint them with a broad brush especially as a youth going to general conference and having a bunch of people yelling at you. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
I think part of me wanted them all to be the same, but, as an evangelical, it was very easy for me to see the taxonomy. I think there are some sincere folks there, and would love for Latter-day Saints to have a conversation with them as to why they’re present, e.g., Bradley Campbell (God Loves Mormons). But so many of them are cosplaying John the Baptist in the worst way, with AI-generated slop signs depicting people in hell. One guy shouted at children their parents were going to burn in hell. I’m just not see the Lord Jesus model that whatsoever. I think that sort of behavior grieves the Holy Spirit.
Your observation of the inoffensive emphasis on salvation as destination over necessity because of sin matches my years of experience in the LDS Church. That with a narrowed ‘benign’ emphasis on God’s desire for our ‘happiness’ and success, without the devotional weight of divine justice, the way of the Cross, and utter detachment from worldly goods (including those deemed essential or most noble), was not an insignificant factor in my conversion out.
This is interesting, Jared. I joined the Church at 16, and the emphasis on repentance has been continual in the many years I've been a member. I'm sure harrowing up people in acknowledgment of their sins was much more common in the early church, as it was at the center of Protestantism at the time. I'm sure the many Saints who left the Church because of Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants did so because it drew focus away from the condemnation of most people and made it seem like most would go to heaven. As for detachment from worldly goods, we as a family have completely detached several times in order to follow promptings from the Spirit. These were Abrahamic tests, something all Saints are supposed to be willing to undertake.
Yes, I agree that emphasizing sin was much more prevent among the early church, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon, early revelations in Doctrine & Covenants, and notes/transcripts of early LDS sermons. I don’t understand, though, why it’s waned (as as the charisma of the Kirtland era).
I often feel like the reason is just cultural. Hellfire and brimstone preaching was comfortable for Brigham Young, but then it faded. But hasn't it faded, at least in America, in most Christian faiths? Yes, the Book of Mormon is absolutely more expressive on evading God's wrath than is modern LDS preaching. The first chapter of the Doctrine and Covenants was dictated by Christ, and it is also more so than modern preaching. As far as charismatic events are concerned, maybe you heard the statement from Dallas Jenkins that Latter-day Saints need to be more enthusiastic in the joy of their worship. In some of our temple dedications, we do the Hosanna Shout, and it's wimpy (embarrassingly so). I hope the brethren encourage the Saints to really go for it as the rededication of the Salt Lake Temple. Let's wake up some angels and get a pentecostal experience.
I resonate with several of those biographical notes and personal sentiments, though I am marking a generalized institutional trend. The beginning of my higher education was at BYU-I Online, using some of their pathway programs and religion courses, alongside the study and personal practices of my active family. I'm not exactly talking about "hellfire preaching", although that represents a regularly necessary, practical expression of acknowledging the gravity of divine justice, which the Bible, the Church Fathers, and many later theologians (both Catholic and Protestant) expressed in a variety of ways. I'm not talking about the scandal of Mormonism's quasi-universalism, either, although it contributes to this issue.
What I'm referring to is a devotional orientation towards loving to please and desire God (and to fear displeasing Him) for His own sake as Goodness. "God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." (Ps. 73:26) The demands of His justice and the response of true religion correspond to the dignity of His Nature. Only God is good, Our Lord says. Like the lover weds her Beloved and forsakes all other goods, so does the disciple. This involves, in the New Testament, a complete detachment even from goods Mormonism esteems as essential, such as family, and a willingness to undergo profound suffering for the glory of God, rather than to desire the pleasures of immanent experience. It is a daily death, which does not spare even the most precious or basic things according to temporal judgment. Historically, in the apostolic churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.), this has manifested as tiers of ascetic practices, such as consecrated celibacy (which St. John Chrysostom ties to the glory of the sun in 1 Cor. 15:40-42, and which St. Paul upheld as superior to marriage 1 Cor. 7), rigorous fasting, imitation and devotion to the martyrs (who follow Christ's example), and other things. Historically and into the present, these communions sustain these in discipline and teaching, even if certain members, by accident, do not share the mind and devotion of the Church. Not all are called to be monks, but all Christians ought to be committed, by ascending degrees, to voluntarily carrying the Cross.
As a thought experiment, which C.S. Lewis entertained in his writing, The Great Divorce, is one truly detached if they are unwilling to enjoy heaven when they are not assured that their immediate family has not been cast into outer darkness? The Christian desires not good things, but the Good per se. This is not formalized in any shape I have observed in Mormonism. To the contrary, I've observed in theological writing, devotional literature, and educational materials, an emphasis on material success, eternal union with family, community, dominions in the afterlife, and other things that apostolic Christians consider lower, analogous, and instrumental goods that must participate in complete subjection to the divine life of the Trinity to be preserved.
I understand your family made sacrifices. I grew up in a faithful family that was often misunderstood by LDS neighbors and hierarchs for the choices we made in pursuit of what we felt God called us to do. These were more than "Abrahamic tests", for the cost materialized in many different ways.
My observation, both in the practical culture and in the official literature, is that the kind of sacrifices you mention are not common or prioritized. There has been a presumption of happiness, material victories, and of this life and the next unfolding in a highly predictable way if one obeys the teachings of the LDS prophets, with preoccupations with family, wealth, and subjective experience of joy. I'm not saying this is completely unfounded. Deuteronomy presupposes a certain moral order and just reward in the cosmos, but the life of Job challenges this severely. The saints of my tradition do not seek God because they are promised these things, but because they love Him. If we and our desires are worth anything, it is in Him, the Foundation of our being (Acts 17:28). Yet, while there is no salvation outside the Mystical Body of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, the Bond of Christian charity in mind and heart, I think that Mormons have space to incorporate the spirit of ascetism and radical self-denial into their doctrines of natural virtue. There are better moments in its history reflecting this.
I can't speak very well to repentance culture in Mormonism since I left in 2022, though I've witnessed the disciplinary process (which, according to several anecdotes, had varying degrees of pastoral success). I don't doubt the presence of an ongoing invitation to moral reform.
This is fascinating. I've never considered asceticism in an LDS context, probably for the reasons you have explained here. Our family has faced a lot of financial trials, and we have lived abroad for years in cultures with both prosperity and abject poverty. Given that we've divested several times of everything we owned, we're not very materialistic. I sometimes see examples of the prosperity gospel, and it has a bitter taste. I don't know if you've gone to see the temple in the hills above Draper in the Salt Lake Valley. It's surrounded by megamansions, or rather, McMansions, and it's appalling to me, and ironic for the reasons you've presented. But one thing...how does one serve his neighbor if one is ascetic? For us, serving God and neighbor are imperative.
I grew up along the Wasatch Front, close to Alpine. I've also travelled far. I know the type, and affluence and comfort are not wrong per se, just spiritually perilous.
As I said, ascetic practice has tiers. Not everyone is called to asceticism or charity in the same way. The rich have obligations to support the poor. More perfect ascetics dedicate themselves to fasting and prayer (which are expressions of love for God and men). The Catholic Church, drawing from the New Testament, details a list of corporeal and spiritual 'works of mercy' that most Christians, regardless of their state in life, can follow. You will find a great diversity of groups among Catholics that dedicate themselves to different things. Laypeople engage in more moderate ascetic practices of fasting, self-denial, and prayer than religious or monastics. Some religious orders are more dedicated to corporeal works of mercy, while others are dedicated to spiritual works of mercy or to a disciplined rule of attention, contemplation, or study (which are all supposed to be spiritual and prayerful). Like St. Paul said, not all have the same gifts of the Spirit.
I can see the difference in one's personal journey toward real spirituality focused on God. Temple worship provides the most definable structure in the Church, but Catholicism has more defined pathways and performances. I have a dear friend whose practice is very close to being an actual nun, even though she never took that path. There are formal ways for her to do this, and it's extremely fulfilling for her. Here, we might want to remember that Catholicism has had a lot of time to put these pathways to asceticism into place. I don't see structures in our church that can lead in that direction, except those that might evolve within temple worship. Rather, this has to happen in one's heart and personal choices. I did leave family behind to join the Church. I've had a lot of years to evolve my faith, but that has been an entirely personal journey, and it looks very different from many other members' but very similar to the journeys of my closest friends, who disavow materialism, understand that any sacrifice is worth drawing closer to God, and show Christlike love in their everyday lives.
Thank you for these comments, which are inspiring and enlightening. As a Latter-day Saint, I really appreciate the work you are doing.